tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2194055897691199164.post512547504958330332..comments2024-03-23T08:42:01.705+00:00Comments on People's Cycling Front of South Gloucestershire: The Vehicular Cyclists are missing the fucking pointUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2194055897691199164.post-12463525897909859212013-02-24T14:42:50.126+00:002013-02-24T14:42:50.126+00:00Just found this after a fairly lively twitter disc...Just found this after a fairly lively twitter discussion this morning.<br /><br />I'm convinced that people how promote VC as the only way forward must also enjoy playing Russian Roulette every weekend.<br /><br />It's like climbers trying to persuade people to climb a building's walls rather than use the lift or stairsGazza_dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00648167302912969102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2194055897691199164.post-83820688627261507512012-11-01T16:10:03.779+00:002012-11-01T16:10:03.779+00:00does either of the extremes of VC or segregationis...does either of the extremes of VC or segregationist you mention actually exist? I think most cyclists are somewhere in the middle. Quality infrastructure and segregation will be nice, I look forward to it, until that comes along riding primary is probably a good idea. <br /><br />Might even dabble in a bit of hiviz-ery during the darker months, but you know I'm just experimenting, I'm not permanently that way inclined.Donkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01919359296842026180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2194055897691199164.post-23139395313046818902012-07-31T15:20:00.795+01:002012-07-31T15:20:00.795+01:00What I want to know is where are all these proposa...What I want to know is where are all these proposals for Dutch style infrastructure that keep being scuppered by zealous VCers? Are these VCers so efficient that they get such proposals strangled at birth so that the only things that gets proposed are crappy shared pavements and narrow lanes? Chapeau to them.Shawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16055860489565712064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2194055897691199164.post-56678007822974635722012-07-20T13:22:42.677+01:002012-07-20T13:22:42.677+01:00@MrHappyCyclist: I do not agree that people are sa...@MrHappyCyclist: I do not agree that people are saying exactly that. Complete isolated infrastructure such that cars and bikes shall never meet is simply not possible. Proper cycling infrastructure, which includes large sections of segregation, goes hand in hand with priority over motor vehicles, separate traffic light phases etc. This needs to be in place first before we can hope that motoring culture then adapts and changes. The current culture is the way it is only because the car is king.Rhode Longhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14915552340092347797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2194055897691199164.post-71890955286720160472012-07-20T13:17:08.289+01:002012-07-20T13:17:08.289+01:00@MrHappyCyclist: Maybe we are violently agreeing. ...@MrHappyCyclist: Maybe we are violently agreeing. If people are advocating Vehicular cyling as the only way (John Franklin approach) then this is wrong and damaging the cause of enabling cycling as a form of transport out to the masses. We need investment in proper segregated infrastructure because our next generation is simply not able to "[cycle] in the world as it is."Rhode Longhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14915552340092347797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2194055897691199164.post-31066827101513707342012-07-20T05:43:41.121+01:002012-07-20T05:43:41.121+01:00@MrHappyCyclist: Yeah, you're probably right a...@MrHappyCyclist: Yeah, you're probably right about the title. The problem is that all anti-infrastructure advocates must by definition be VCists, so I think the terms get muddled. We need a simpler way of saying "anti-infrastructure cyclist" as it's just not snappy enough!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2194055897691199164.post-22904397896408940932012-07-18T20:17:20.950+01:002012-07-18T20:17:20.950+01:00@Rhode Long. Please explain how I am being selfish...@Rhode Long. Please explain how I am being selfish here by simply pointing out that vehicular cycling is all we have right now, that "vehicular cyclist" does not mean "anti-infrastructure", and that we should not abandon education and training (as well as a load of other culture-changing interventions as important elements of a balanced approach.<br /><br />I think your prejudice is blinding you to what I actually wrote. Please read it again before commenting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2194055897691199164.post-30334816133597303232012-07-18T16:48:55.430+01:002012-07-18T16:48:55.430+01:00@MrHappyCyclist
No, don't stay home until cycl...@MrHappyCyclist<br />No, don't stay home until cycling utopia is built. You are happy playing with the traffic and of course the principles in Cyclecraft are essential.<br /><br />But what about my young daughter? Do I let her cycle to school on her own, confident that her Bikeability training will keep her alive on our deathtrap streets? No - it is not enough so she and her generation are doomed to our shit car centric world. We must fight for proper infrastructure for them. Don't be selfish.Rhode Longhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14915552340092347797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2194055897691199164.post-4650231101136918282012-07-18T05:54:21.708+01:002012-07-18T05:54:21.708+01:00Actually, they are saying exactly that. I agree th...Actually, they are saying exactly that. I agree that segregation is appropriate in many places, but the people that shout about it rarely mention all of the other factors that affect the culture. For example, an important part of Dutch design seems to involve giving cyclists the priority over motor vehicles in many places. That requires a totally different motoring culture to the one we have here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2194055897691199164.post-1665703864916492382012-07-18T05:48:58.634+01:002012-07-18T05:48:58.634+01:00@Edward: When you are in a culture that respects c...@Edward: When you are in a culture that respects cyclists, you don't have to claim the lane to prevent close passes because they don't happen anyway. Unfortunately, that is not currently the case here, for a variety of reasons that are not all to do with segregated infrastructure.<br /><br />@DfT: Then the title is wrong. It is not about vehicular cyclists, it is about anti-infrastructure advocates.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2194055897691199164.post-13968067330400945102012-07-18T04:54:41.280+01:002012-07-18T04:54:41.280+01:00I think there are Vehicular Cyclists, and then the...I think there are Vehicular Cyclists, and then there are VC zealots. The difference being that VCists use it as a tool to ride on Britain's roads, whereas VC zealots believe that it's the only proper way to cycle and actively resist anything else - including Dutch-style infrastructure. I think this article is aimed squarely at the VC zealots who promote it as the only option.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2194055897691199164.post-84230463231276670792012-07-17T14:28:03.080+01:002012-07-17T14:28:03.080+01:00You are correct that there are many places in the ...You are correct that there are many places in the Netherlands where motor vehicles and bicycles share space but do not confuse that with vehicular cycling:<br /><br />http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2012/04/100-segregation-of-bikes-and-cars.html<br /><br />Organise yourself a study tour. You won't regret it :)Edwardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03412247742128741823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2194055897691199164.post-47613682838252546752012-07-17T12:47:21.502+01:002012-07-17T12:47:21.502+01:00I am a vehicular cyclist too, I even encourage peo...I am a vehicular cyclist too, I even encourage people onto the training schemes - but I think the fact remains that this is only a temporary approach and leads to a transient toe-dipping into cycling for many. <br /><br />Just as body armour may stop some of the bullets getting through it is better in the long term to disarm. <br /><br />The Dutch progress was slow and started in the 1970s. I dont think anyone is saying here that segregation is the only option.Downfaderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13184133679478493276noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2194055897691199164.post-38789943636535768502012-07-17T11:24:41.344+01:002012-07-17T11:24:41.344+01:00I really do think you are the one that is missing ...I really do think you are the one that is missing the point. You are presenting an extreme position that I think few people actually hold, and then arguing an equally extreme counter position to that straw man.<br /><br />I am what you might refer to as a "Vehicular Cyclist"; I try to apply the principles set out in Cyclecraft and Bikeability, and I would advocate others doing the same. The reason I do that is because the only "cycling infrastructure" on my commute or rides consists of crappy gutter lanes. There is no decent segregated cycle infrastructure anywhere that I know of within a 50 mile radius of my home, and certainly not where I want/need to travel. What would you have me do? Stay at home until such time as there is a wonderful, completely separate cycle network? I'll be long dead before that happens.<br /><br />Even when there is a significant amount of segregated infrastructure, there will still be a significant amount of road sharing between motor vehicles and bicycles. For that to be made safe requires training and eduction. You suggest we should abandon education completely and put all of the funding into segregated cycle ways.<br /><br />Do you really think that the Dutch put all their eggs into the segregation basket? If so, then you are sadly mistaken. There are many places where motor vehicles and bicycles share space, and there is massive attention paid to education and training, of both cyclists and motorists.<br /><br />Why does it have to be one thing or the other? Why can't there be a balanced, sensible approach instead of this black and white, religious zeal. We can aspire to something better, but in the meantime we have to live in the world as it is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2194055897691199164.post-88013142609434529632012-07-17T10:01:24.028+01:002012-07-17T10:01:24.028+01:00Some ten years ago I found myself putting pretty m...Some ten years ago I found myself putting pretty much exactly the same points to a VCer in Cambridge who insisted that the surrounding A roads were just fine for cycling.<br /><br />Later, I found out how his children got to school: he sent them on the bus. I think that says it all.David Hembrowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14543024940730663645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2194055897691199164.post-47492156428281732892012-07-16T22:07:05.172+01:002012-07-16T22:07:05.172+01:00Hard and to the point. I like this.Hard and to the point. I like this.Downfaderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13184133679478493276noreply@blogger.com